Air France has just revealed its newest destination in the United States, and it’s a pretty exciting new route, as flagged by @JS_Cassady via @IshrionA.
In this post:
Air France adds Paris to Phoenix route
As of May 23, 2024, Air France will launch a new year-round flight between Paris (CDG) and Phoenix (PHX). The flight will operate 3x weekly with the following schedule:
AF68 Paris to Phoenix departing 10:10AM arriving 12:10PM
AF69 Phoenix to Paris departing 2:10PM arriving 9:15AM (+1 day)
The 5,481-mile flight is blocked at 11hr westbound and 10hr5min eastbound. The flight will operate on Tuesdays, Thursdays, and Saturdays in both direction. I should acknowledge that some people won’t like that eastbound schedule, given the very early departure. Personally I don’t mind it, since it’s not that long before my bedtime. 😉
Air France will use a Boeing 787-9 for the service, featuring 276 seats. This includes 30 business class seats, 21 premium economy seats, and 225 economy class seats.
How this route fits in Air France’s network
Phoenix will be Air France’s 17th destination in the United States, and it’s a pretty cool new addition. Phoenix is of course an airport that’s dominated by American. Currently the airport’s only year-round transatlantic service is on both American and British Airways to London, given that the two airlines have a transatlantic joint venture.
On top of that, German leisure airline Condor operates seasonal flights from there to Frankfurt. Lufthansa subsidiary Eurowings Discover was also supposed to add a seasonal Frankfurt to Phoenix route in April 2020, though that was canceled due to the pandemic, and was never pursued again.
So it’s cool to see some transatlantic competition at long last from one of the “big three” transatlantic joint ventures. Air France has a partnership with Delta, KLM, and Virgin Atlantic. Currently none of those airlines have transatlantic flights from Phoenix, and Delta doesn’t have that much connectivity from Phoenix.
I imagine that Air France figures there’s enough room for another player, especially with just three weekly flights. I’m curious to see how Air France performs in Arizona. I’m sure the airline will have no issues filling flights in summer, given the amount of seasonal transatlantic demand there is. I think winter will be a bit trickier, though, especially since Air France can’t compete with the frequencies offered by American and British Airways between the United States and Europe.
Admittedly Air France has a huge global network, so this could also be useful for those traveling to Africa, India, and beyond. This is the second 3x weekly service that Air France has added in the past year to a new US market, as the airline also launched a route to Raleigh-Durham as of October 2023. However, that replaced service of joint venture partner Delta.
Bottom line
As of May 2024, Air France will launch a new 3x weekly flight between Paris and Phoenix using a Boeing 787. Phoenix currently only has year-round transatlantic service from American and British Airways, so more competition is great for consumers. Hopefully this route proves a success.
What do you make of Air France adding service to Phoenix?
Great ! Now given Phoenix has a good Indian diaspora there, India to Phoenix flights will be just 1 stopover away. Add to that AF's good reputation, as opposed to BA who has a similar service.
I do wonder if AA is interested in competing in this route. DFW is the closest city to the Western US that AA operates nonstops to CDG from; their SEA hub failed recently and they don't seem too keen on adding international routes to LAX either.
Yet another airline to squeeze into Sky Harbor that is already getting too big for its britches WITHOUT another terminal or adding to terminal #4.
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jedipenguin Guest
January 23, 2024, 4:31 pm
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chasgoose Guest
January 23, 2024, 10:02 pm
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1 more replyPhoenix needs a new airport-location between Phoenix and Tucson would be the best.
PHX’s location in Phoenix is one of its best assets. They would be insane to move it elsewhere. Also a lot of the wealth and tourism in Phoenix is concentrated in the north part of the metro area (some of it already relatively far from the airport) moving the airport further south to the middle of nowhere would make no sense.
That schedule is a real killer. One a potential one week trip you lose two days by having to leave and return Saturday, whereas the BA/AA flights you can leave Friday night and return Sunday. I hate Heathrow too, but CDG isn’t much better and that scheudle sucks.
I live in Tucson and flew to DEL 4 times this year, always thru LHR. After All the great comments here about Air France service and quality, I am looking forward to connecting through Paris. Time to get the Air France credit card I guess.
Interesting. Would have thought AF69 would have flow to Nice, not Paris.
69AF
I am so excited right now! The best news ever for Phoenix!!! Cannot wait to fly to Paris more often!!!
Wonder why PHX and not San Diego. BA is adding a second daily flight LHRSAN, so I would have imagined that AF's interest in SAN would be greater.
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ImmortalSynn Guest
January 22, 2024, 7:02 pm
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Greg Guest
January 22, 2024, 7:49 pm
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Greg Guest
January 22, 2024, 7:52 pm
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ImmortalSynn Guest
January 22, 2024, 7:54 pm
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3 more repliesYou may have answered your own question. Lufthansa is back to daily (with a hub switch) and BA recently added another flight. AF might not see room right now.
Yup, also probably some spillover to LAX
PHX has nothing within a drive
I'm more surprised LAS didn't come first but they have the data, I don't
Odd to launch going into the heat of summer, again they have the data, I don't
Now I get the summertime and route logic. It's for PHX origin pax heading east to escape the heat. Not for Europeans to come to PHX.
Still surprised LAS didn't 'beat' but I guess well served and not as much of a wealthy retiree market for summer trips
@Greg
LAS may have more traffic (I don't know) but it also has a lot more competition to Europe, including a SkyTeam member who's part of their joint venture, so Air France can make some money off of that.
Also, it's the heat of summer, but it's also right before the Paris Olympics.
Too funny, I was in PHX today after coming in from MCO and saw a bunch of cameras and lights etc... it was Air France and PHX brass doing a presser for this route.
We travel to Paris at least once a year, and having lived in Phoenix since 2005, this is GREAT news! We're the 5th largest city in the US, and one of the fastest growing, so I think we'll easily be able to sustain three flights weekly.
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BurritoMiles Guest
January 22, 2024, 7:45 pm
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LAXLonghorn New Member
January 22, 2024, 9:31 pm
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James Guest
January 23, 2024, 10:48 am
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Ryan Guest
January 23, 2024, 5:34 am
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3 more repliesPHX is a "city" like McDonald's is "food". Technically true but misleading.
I think you're using the Chamber of Commerce measurement of "city limit" population versus "metro area" population...no one other than you thinks that PHX is really the 5th largest city in the USA.
How cities are defined is interesting. If you go by city council borders then, yes, Phoenix is the fifth largest US city with 1.6m within the city council area. But by this definition Phoenix doesn't include Glendale or Tempe etc. And it also means Phoenix is bigger than, say, the Dallas council area. But if you take the entire metro area - which I think is a more realistic definition of what a city is...
How cities are defined is interesting. If you go by city council borders then, yes, Phoenix is the fifth largest US city with 1.6m within the city council area. But by this definition Phoenix doesn't include Glendale or Tempe etc. And it also means Phoenix is bigger than, say, the Dallas council area. But if you take the entire metro area - which I think is a more realistic definition of what a city is - then Phoenix is merely 10th biggest with 5m while Dallas/Fort Worth has 8m.
Any city can be the 5th largest when the city boundaries are stretched to the size of Rhode Island.
When will it be bookable?
Works for me considering I won’t be paying huge fees in award tickets to fly through lhr
Wonderful news for PHX.
Any ideas when the flights will be bookable?
17th Air France US destination. In the mid-1980's, Air France has roughly 4 destinations....JFK, IAH/MEX, LAX, IAD. Later, it started a mini-hub at MIA and SFO. Now 17 cities in the US.
UTA is dead. So is Air Inter. Air France ate them.
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TravelinWilly Diamond
January 22, 2024, 5:56 pm
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derek Guest
January 22, 2024, 8:02 pm
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Ryan Guest
January 23, 2024, 5:36 am
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2 more repliesAF didn't fly to ORD in the 80s? I only ask because I know they did in the 70s, but I'm wondering if they stopped service in the 80s and then resumed it again...
Maybe they stopped, maybe not. Online in 1977, it was JFK, BOS, IAD, ORD, LAX, IAH/MEX.
I remember SFO was an expansion and post 1988. Around 1988, it was UTA serving SFO.
You forget Boston, one of its longest served destinations in the US
We have lived in Phoenix for 19 years and have flown BA 2-3 times a year. We are ecstatic that finally they have some competition. While the cabin crew are great, the management of BA are the worst in the entire business. After many years they finally upgraded their industry worst, abysmal, horrendous biz class 2-4-2 seating to an actually 1-2-1 good layout. Now they need to work on their dining and wine offerings. Hopefully...
We have lived in Phoenix for 19 years and have flown BA 2-3 times a year. We are ecstatic that finally they have some competition. While the cabin crew are great, the management of BA are the worst in the entire business. After many years they finally upgraded their industry worst, abysmal, horrendous biz class 2-4-2 seating to an actually 1-2-1 good layout. Now they need to work on their dining and wine offerings. Hopefully Air France will force them to do so. Since this is the fifth largest city in the USA , and has virtually no weather delays ever, I don’t know why we don’t have more Tran-Atlantic airlines. We’ve already booked our 2024 flights but will try Air France for 2025. Fingers crossed.
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JD Guest
January 23, 2024, 4:32 am
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SkyWhale New Member
January 23, 2024, 5:28 am
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James Guest
January 23, 2024, 10:51 am
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Mary Guest
January 23, 2024, 5:46 am
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Abe Guest
January 23, 2024, 12:50 pm
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Dylan Guest
January 23, 2024, 5:10 pm
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5 more repliesPerhaps you don't have more transatlantic flights because you are not the fifth largest city. Wake up!
A simple Google search shows that Phoenix is in fact the 5th largest American city after NY, LA, Chicago and Houston
In reality, Phoenix is the 10th largest city in the US. Yes, the area covered by the city council makes it the fifth largest city council but that's a pretty arbitrary definition as some councils are big and some small. Some council used to cover the whole city, but the city grew beyond its borders. A better definition of a city - the population of the entire metro area - puts Phoenix at 10th. Still big though.
Even if they were, which they’re not, it also comes down to its economy and city offerings. Sure there maybe a lot of people, but it’s no San Francisco or Boston in terms of economy. What is really in Phoenix besides a lot of strip malls and retirement homes?
"What is really in Phoenix besides a lot of strip malls and retirement homes?" I love when ass clowns like yourself make ignorant comments about Phoenix. You are on the the freaking internet, a few key strokes would show you that your hot take is complete nonsense. Just another lazy tired take on Phoenix.
By the way Phoenix is the 5th largest city by population, contrary to what you want to spew online. It...
"What is really in Phoenix besides a lot of strip malls and retirement homes?" I love when ass clowns like yourself make ignorant comments about Phoenix. You are on the the freaking internet, a few key strokes would show you that your hot take is complete nonsense. Just another lazy tired take on Phoenix.
By the way Phoenix is the 5th largest city by population, contrary to what you want to spew online. It is the 10th largest metro area by population and Phoenix is the 10th largest city by area.
5th largest population for a city, but 11th largest for a metro area.
Very interesting choice. They must have insight from Delta regarding booking partners to help confirm their choice.
What's so unique is that Air France doesn't even serve Seattle daily (I think 3x weekly) and they have connectivity via Delta and they chose to launch this route before going daily to a hub in the west.
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Hammerofguam Member
January 22, 2024, 5:07 pm
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Hammerofguam Member
January 22, 2024, 5:09 pm
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NK3 Gold
January 22, 2024, 5:28 pm
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2 more repliesPhoenix MSA is the 10th largest in the United States, and was the only market in the top 10 not served by Air France.
Scratch that, no Air France service to Philly. :D
Depending upon the month, the AF flight to SEA is either 3x/week, 5x, or daily. Keep in mind that Delta has its own SEA-CDG flight which is daily most of the year (sometimes 6x in low season). And Air Tahiti Nui also flies that route 2x weekly. So the route is rather well served, given the size of the metro area.
As someone that uses flying blue a lot and is based in PHX I'm looking forward to this. I usually have to book out of LAX or LAS. I can see the flights doing well throughout the year due to the connection destinations.
I'm super excited for redemption opportunities too and not having to reposition to LAX
Quite an interesting route addition. Phoenix is no doubt a growing city that, until now, has lacked much competition for international routes due to there being only one year round choice of Heathrow. It will be interesting to see how PHX will perform.
Maybe we might see a couple of other international airlines like Aer Lingus, Lufthansa, etc. follow suit with PHX routes at some point.
On a less-happy note, AF also just slammed the ass of an A359 into the runway at YYZ, so who knows how long *that* aircraft will be out.
Might short-circuit immediate expansion plans for a while.
Passenger onboard was filming, you can hear the tail-strike at 0:17.
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ConcordeBoy Diamond
January 22, 2024, 4:24 pm
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ConcordeBoy Diamond
January 22, 2024, 4:32 pm
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Clem Diamond
January 22, 2024, 4:42 pm
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ConcordeBoy Diamond
January 22, 2024, 4:49 pm
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3 more replieshttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xbDy3TMw7wQ
Pics look pretty rough too:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GEeHgTAWAAIpuG8?format=jpg&name=medium
https://onemileatatime.com/news/air-france-airbus-a350-tail-strike/
Ah, my bad. Didn't see that there was already a post!
AF has been on a roll with N.American expansion as of late, but definitely didn't see this one coming!
Shocked that they'd pick Phoenix over San Diego, but happy for any place getting new service. At this rate, I wouldn't be surprised to see them re-enter Orlando, as well as launch San Diego, New Orleans, and/or Las Vegas, as well.
WooHoo!! About time to have some choices!!! Better to fly to CDG and enjoy a Paris layover, then take a regional jet to LON to avoid LHR ridicules fees!!! Save me a seat on AF!!!
CDG has premium cabin departure surcharge as well
There are also carrier surcharges on AF, just not as much as BA
The early Paris arrival is great for onward connections, factoring in customs and re-passing through security.
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Julia Guest
January 22, 2024, 4:23 pm
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Hammerofguam Member
January 22, 2024, 4:30 pm
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Hammerofguam Member
January 22, 2024, 4:32 pm
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W3SD New Member
January 22, 2024, 4:51 pm
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Derek Guest
January 22, 2024, 4:59 pm
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4 more repliesDon't most flights from the US to Europe arrive in the early morning?
There is a mixed bag from the west coast of arrival times. Most seem to arrive at 11 am or later, so this is earlier than normal.
And I am considering PHX west coast as it is following Pacific time for the majority of the year.
It's technically PST without Daylight Savings time.
"It's technically PST without Daylight Savings time."
No, Arizona follows Mountain Standard Time year-round. When Daylight Saving (without the s) is in effect, then MST==PDT. When it is not, MST==MST.
I am assuming they will have to fly into terminal 4 for customs and immigration (I don't think they have that at terminal 3?). I wonder what lounge they will use, given that Delta is in terminal 3. Will they contract with the Escape Lounge?
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luiszx New Member
January 23, 2024, 1:03 am
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KyleEP Guest
January 23, 2024, 10:05 am
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Dylan Guest
January 23, 2024, 5:07 pm
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2 more repliesCondor and BA already contract with the escape lounge, the other option would be the new Sapphire Lounge opening soon
Not sure it will be the Sapphire lounge either as it's on the polar opposite end of T4 (15-20 min walk, which I did the other day out of curiosity). I could see them either contracting with Escape/Centurion or they will reposition the plane to T3 so passengers can use the partner Delta lounge there. Looking forward to seeing how this element plays out.
Sapphire lounge will be near the new D gates, whereas the plane would need to be in the high B gates. Given the early departure time I'm guessing the Escape Lounge.